10.6 Intel yes, PPC no... & keyboard thread

[R0GUE]

Official: Mac OS X Snow Leopard doesn't support PowerPC Macs

According to Apple Insider (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/06/11/official_mac_os_x_snow_leopard_doesnt_support_powe rpc_macs.html), documentation included with copies of Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard distributed during Apple's developer conference this week confirms that the next-generation operating system does not presently support Macs with PowerPC processors.

LogicielMac.com has published a screen capture (http://www.logicielmac.com/news5041/Snow_Leopard__adieu_les_PPC_.html) of the PDF-based requirements document included on the Snow Leopard disc that provides a rundown of the system's requirements.

The documentation states that in order to install Snow Leopard, developers must have a Mac computer with "an Intel processor" and at least 512MB of RAM, though additional memory is recommended for development purposes.

The findings confirm an AppleInsider report (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/09/24/updated_leopard_requirements_to_exclude_800mhz_sys tems.html) from last September, which cited people familiar with the ongoing development as saying that Mac OS X 10.6 would in all likelihood exclude support for PowerPC processors.

According to the Snow Leopard documentation, the system will also require an Apple-supplied video card, 9GB of hard disk space, and either an internal, external or shared DVD drive.

[naquaada]

Super :-P
Poor PPC users, I say.

[xx66stangxx]

good thing I just bought my Macbook :-p. Now will my Amd be able to run 10.6 Snow Leopard?..../joke

[naquaada]

First: it has to be out: Second: It will run on AMD, sooner or later. We got everything to work on AMD yet. If Intel doesn't plan various processor instructions like SSE5 or something like this.

This instruction set war is a real problem: Intel now has as newest command sets SSSE3, AMD in the Phenom CPUs SSE4 or SSE4a. Interesting is the story of AMD64 and SSE3: AMD invented the 64bit instruction set AMD64 (on Intel EM64T). Intel wanted to use it, so AMD got as exchange the SSE3 instruction set. These instruction set battles should be regulated externally. If a software uses an instruction set which the other processor manufacturer has not it won't work on this processor, and so it would be a market distortion. It's a bit as using umlauts depending on a language: on an English keyboard you can't type äöü ÄÖÜ directly. You have to 'emulate' these keys using the character table or a ASCII-input.

Another question is if new instruction were used. A software producer must think over to use SSE4 because the most processors which are actually used now in a lot of computers don't have them. Programming a game using an instruction set (f.e. in a game) which have maybe only 3% of the computer users this would be not very intelligent if you want to make money with the software. Apple don't has to care about not some instruction set problems, like missing SSE3. We needed an SSE3 emulator for this on some computers. But if they now plan to use newer instruction sets are using newer instruction sets (I heared something that Aperture should be using SSE4) they won't work on the earlier Macbooks. By the way, Aperture is working on AMD, unpatched, so it seems they didn't use new instruction sets.

[R0GUE]

naquaada:It's a bit as using umlauts depending on a language: on an English keyboard you can't type äöü ÄÖÜ directly. You have to 'emulate' these keys using the character table or a ASCII-input.
Strange, I use a UK Keyboard layout and I only need to press the option (alt) key to get umlauts and accents. äüöôåéáàñ

[naquaada]

On the Mac, but not on Windows. The Mac has more characters on the keyboard, like the Amiga. They are sorted by the importance of the characters in the country the keyboard layout is made for. This is also for the alternate keys:

1 - no alternate key: small characters, often used addidtional chars
2 - Shift: capital letters, numbers, additional chars

Mac and Amiga:

3: Amiga: Alt, Mac/Mac keyboard: Alt, Mac/Win keyboard: Windows key: more additional chars
4: Amiga: Shift+Alt, Mac/Mac keyboard: Shift+Alt, Mac/Win keyboard: Shift+Windows: less used additional chars

Examples:

In the US and maybe UK the @ was used before emailing, so it's Shift+2. In Germany it wasn't needed at all, so it's AltGr+Q (right alt key) on Windows - you need a big hand span for this. On a Mac keyboard it's Alt+L.
In the UK the Pound sign £ is often used - it's on Shift+3. On a german Mac layout it's Alt+Shift+3 ! So in Windows you don't have it on the keyboard at all, you have to use the character table. The same is with the special signs of danish and swedish keyboards - œæøå ŒÆØÅ, they are directly on the keyboard, I have to use Windows and Shift-Windows on my Mac with a Windows keyboard.
Also the swapping of the Y and the Z is important, in the German langugage the Y nearly never appears, so it's in a place where you are not often while typing. Very different to the QWERTZ/QWERTY keyboards is the french layout; its AZERTY. But there are way more differences than that.
The newest additional key is the € - on Windows it's AltGr+E and on the Mac Alt+E. The crazy thing is, it is nearly never be used - for the Euro normally should be used the international currency abbreviation EUR.

[Voyn1x]

@ naquaada,

You should try doing some research, you don't seem to know much about this subject! ;)

[naquaada]

What do you know better?

[Puttabong]

naquaada, OT: I use the € quite often!
However, I personally couldn't work with a Windows Keyboard attached to a Mac. :-D

[Voyn1x]

It was just a bit of friendly sarcasm! You sound very clued up about this :)

Note to self, must remember sarcasm doesn't translate well over the internet...

[naquaada]

@ Puttabong:

PC keyboards are not always the same. I couldn't type with a cherry keyboard where every key clicks. I know keyboards from a lot of computers, the C64 keybord needs a lot of pressure, but you can use it for long, the C128 keyboard is way better although you still need pressure. It's better because the form of the keys. The Amiga keyboard is great, while Atari keyboards are crap. Sinclair used rubber keys for the Spectrum ;-) This computer was designed to be extremely cheap, that's why it has RAM chips which were defective in one half. PC/XT keyboards (10 f-keys on the left side) are cruel, also the early IBM keyboards - but some people swar of them, it's the same with Cherry keyboards. I think the old Fujitsu/Siemens keyboards wre rather soft, not good for work. Since 2003 I'm using Logitech wireless keyboards and won't get away from them. But I have 4 different versions, all feel different, but all are good. I haven't tested Apple keyboards for a longer time yet, but at least the look of the Macbook keyboards is horrible and I'm not sure if they are good for long work. For normal use I have the problem that Apple keyboards have a cable, and I don't trust Bluetooth. The Logitech controller supports up to 1024 different keyboards, this is good because I have 4 computers with wireless keyboard/mouse combinations in one room. The Mighty Mouse is horrible. I need to feel and hear the keys and the scroll wheel. The scroll ball on the Mighty Mouse is too small for me, maybe 'cause I have thin fingers, keine Wurstfinger ;-) A mouse is also important, the new Logitech mice are too big for me.

@ Voyn1x:

I know that my posts to a simple subject will get a little song sometimes (see above), but this happens for information or because you can't judge everything with one sentence, like Puttabong and his Apple keyboard. A lot of users give an answer in one sentence only, and often this isn't enough.

[naquaada]

Hey Puttabong: This would be the ideal keyboard (http://www.cambazinteractive.com/ebay/TASTATUR_FLEX.jpg) for you. As flat as an Apple keyboard but way cheaper ;-D

[Puttabong]

Argh! That's terrible.
I use an Apple Alumium Keyboard and I am in love with it. Best Keyboard I have ever used. :-)

[naquaada]

Have you tested it in a microwave oven?

[Puttabong]

No, I am lucky that my mind is in a good shape. :-)

[naquaada]

It is a user-defineable keyboard - can you bend it?

[Puttabong]

I have very thin fingers as well, and I love my Mighty Mouse. :-D

When I switched from Razer to Mighty Mouse, it felt unusual because it was rather small.
However, I started to love it. The trackball is very nice. :-)
I don't like the wireless mighty mouse though, because it has a rather bad response time!

I know that many people, including you, don't like it. As far as I remember, rogue doesn't like the MM either!

The Aluminium Apple Keyboard is by far the best Keyboard on the market, if you ask me. For both Mac & Windows. :-)

Do you remember my old comparison picture?

http://www.imagehut.eu/images/77309scary_comparison.jpg

Scary! Almost like Porsche vs. Volkswagen Polo! :-D

I'm very sorry for the dirt inside of the Logitech Internet Navigator, it's quite old, huge and... ugly :-(

The Alu Keyboard is the best choice for long work and there's almost no effort to type the keys, because they are so thin!

[Voyn1x]

naquaada:
I know that my posts to a simple subject will get a little song sometimes (see above), but this happens for information or because you can't judge everything with one sentence, like Puttabong and his Apple keyboard. A lot of users give an answer in one sentence only, and often this isn't enough.
Hey i'm not complaining, this is a good thing! I was kind of taken aback at how much you actually know!! :)

[naquaada]

That's my working place:

http://naquaada.na.funpic.de/naq/osx86/forum/infinitemac/naquaada/pix/workingplace.jpg

from left to right:

- 8+2 channel Behringer mixer for input (for my M-Audio USB Quattro)
- 5+2 channel Behringer mixer for output
- Behringer MiniFEX 800 effect processor (in the background)
- external iSight
- USB/Firewire 2,5" HD
- Samsung Syncmaster 20" TFT
- Logitech Internet Navigator Cordless Keyboard/mouse
- soldering station (background)

The remotes are for my Video/SVideo->VGA adapter, 2x Apple Remote, Windows Media center remote and a remote for wireless switches, so I need only one key to switch on my mixer, the effect processor and the monitor.
But I have to admit, the Apple keyboard is surely better to clean tan other keyboards. Ok, maybe not the rubber keyboards , you can take them into the shower every day ;-)

The space for the mouse is really enough, I only need about 2cm for the full width of 1600 pixels!

[R0GUE]

Wow, this thread got hijacked in a really big way :-P

[naquaada]

Hehe. But 10.6 is a bit far in the future. And if it's only PPC we don't need to worry about it anyway.

[R0GUE]

Tell that to my G5 Powermac :-(

[naquaada]

I only wanted that you're writing a comment in your own thread ;-)

[milanca]

@naquaada

the only thing i am impressed and i like most in this setup is soldering station ;-) and if its a Weller then i like it 2x more :-)

back to topic:

Just was wondering what they meant under 'Apple-supplied video card'

[naquaada]

No, it's a really cheap soldering station, bought it already in the 90's or so.
Hm, an 'Apple-supplied video card' was a ATI Rage Pro some years ago...

I had a real crazy problem now: I installed the wohle Logic package (>60 GB) and it installed all - except Logic! I started the LogicPro installer seperate from the .mpkg file and got the message 'OS X 10.3.9 or later required' :-) The same happened at Aperture. Hm, I removed the file 'InstallationCheck' from the installer package and then it worked. After installing I slimmed all apps (Aperture, Logic and Final Cut packages, iLife and iWork) and saved 1.4 GB by removing PPC code and languages.

[Voyn1x]

Puttabong:I have very thin fingers as well, and I love my Mighty Mouse. :-D

When I switched from Razer to Mighty Mouse, it felt unusual because it was rather small.
However, I started to love it. The trackball is very nice. :-)
I don't like the wireless mighty mouse though, because it has a rather bad response time!

I know that many people, including you, don't like it. As far as I remember, rogue doesn't like the MM either!

The Aluminium Apple Keyboard is by far the best Keyboard on the market, if you ask me. For both Mac & Windows. :-)

Do you remember my old comparison picture?

http://www.imagehut.eu/images/77309scary_comparison.jpg

Scary! Almost like Porsche vs. Volkswagen Polo! :-D

I'm very sorry for the dirt inside of the Logitech Internet Navigator, it's quite old, huge and... ugly :-(

The Alu Keyboard is the best choice for long work and there's almost no effort to type the keys, because they are so thin!

I've got a mighty mouse, i do like it but I have a few issues with it. Once in a while the trackball stops working in certain directions which is a right pain in the ass, and I find sometimes you left click and it right clicks instead. I must say you can't beat an Apple mouse for comfort when cutting out an image in photoshop though... :-)

Deffo 1+ for the Apple Aluminium Keyboard!! I have one at work and it's easley hands down the best keyboard i have ever used. Typing is a breeze and i'm sure i make less corrections.

[Voyn1x]

naquaada:No, it's a really cheap soldering station, bought it already in the 90's or so.
Hm, an 'Apple-supplied video card' was a ATI Rage Pro some years ago...

I had a real crazy problem now: I installed the wohle Logic package (>60 GB) and it installed all - except Logic! I started the LogicPro installer seperate from the .mpkg file and got the message 'OS X 10.3.9 or later required' :-) The same happened at Aperture. Hm, I removed the file 'InstallationCheck' from the installer package and then it worked. After installing I slimmed all apps (Aperture, Logic and Final Cut packages, iLife and iWork) and saved 1.4 GB by removing PPC code and languages.

That is weird.

@naquaada, btw how do you go about removing PPC code and languages from an application?

[zephyroth]

XSlimmer !

[Voyn1x]

Cheers Zeph :)

*Goes off to download*

[Puttabong]

Voyn1x, be careful though, sometimes its seems to be able to break certain applications
- it happened to me in the past!

[naquaada]

It has a blacklist which prevents appliactions from slimming. This is f.e. Activity Monitor, Mail, Safari and the most Adobe stuff.

[Puttabong]

If I remember correctly it broke Speed Download 5 (for example)!

[naquaada]

@ Voyn1x:

I just slimmed the whole iLife '08, iWork '08, Final Cut Studio 2, Logic Studio 8 and Aperture 2.1 packages - alltogether 27 big apps. I saved ca. 1.7 GB, that's about the half of all progs. I tested them and they are all working.

[milanca]

I have it, but cant make it work.. constantly blank screen and application not responding. i used to setup maxuae and it was working fine.

[Voyn1x]

Naquadda, now that's pretty impressive! Shame most of the large apps i would want to slim are in the Adobe CS3 Master Collection, but in your previous post you mentioned most Adobe stuff is blacklisted :(

[naquaada]

This does it look like if you start all of them at once (http://naquaada.na.funpic.de/naq/osx86/forum/infinitemac/naquaada/pix/apple_professional.jpg). I started them all at the same time, it worked, but took about 84 GB virtual mem ;-)