Reliability of OS X in a real production environment (on non-apple h/w)

[Beaver]

Hello everyone,

I haven't read much about osx86 for a long time, and infinite mac seemed like the best of all the communities (great theme too). I was involved with "hackintosh" stuff in the very early days, and haven't returned to it since then.

I work for a small to medium sized design agency, and we run all Macs (iMacs and Mac-Minis, Macbooks). Since the legality of retail installs on generic hardware is sketchy at best, I won't name the business.

I'd really like to hear some practical input from people regarding how well OS X runs on generic hardware, in a real working environment. If I choose the best and most compatible hardware, what sort of experience can I expect? A bit of initial setup time is fine (and for OS updates), but I'm concerned about wasting time with on-going issues and bugs. We'll be running CS4, Lightroom, Textmate, and misc utilities nearly all day, computers are rarely asleep, and never turned off.

The price of Mac Pros can get pretty crazy, and building a custom system seems like it could be worthwhile.

I've gone through the wikis to see what's what, but I'd like some practical advice on the real-world side of things, preferably from people using osx86 under similar circumstances.

How well does this platform hold up on ideal hardware?


Cheers

Beav


P.S For the admins/mods. I can't seem to add an avatar using any browser. Image dimensions and filesize are correct. I get "invalid file" regardless of what I try.

[Taisto]

I guess it all depends on hardware. On my "Mac", I run Ableton, Reason 4 all the time, and CS2 sometimes. My "Mac" works like this from 8:00 to 24:00 for 5-6 months now, and it never crashed, freezed etc. Sorry - it did once, but while I was away - system just froze. Still, i think it all depends on what hardware you`re going to use - it works great for me even though i`m using AMD. But i cant tell you how it would react to long hours/days without switching off.

[naquaada]

I'm working with Logic Pro, Final Cut HD, Quark XPress (7 and 8)... I had Cubase, Reason and Photoshop CS3 running... and this with 10.5.3. The only problem is that Quicktime 7.5 or higher is awful slow. But I have a feeling it's the gfx card, although the Radeon X1600Pro runs fine with any other program.

[Beaver]

Thanks for the input guys. Sounds like it has been pretty solid for you with heavier apps.

I've searched and read similar threads, and they all seem to agree (at least when the hardware is right).

I might build a test system with a quadcore and one of those gigabyte boards (where most of the stuff works out of the box). Something mid-range just to see how it holds up.

On an un-related note, it's sure hard to find a good LCD these days! Everything is cheap chinesey TN's. I can't find any S-IPS/M-PVA 24"ers.

[thedaemon]

I am still holding on dearly to my Dell 2405FPW, such a great monitor. And on topic, I do 3d animation as a student and I haven't ran into any problems. Works like a charm. I suggest you go for it!

[naquaada]

@Beaver: If you're looking for a great TFT, take a look at the Eizo Flexscan L997 monitor. This is an 21,3" professional LCD monitor monster. This thing is so big that I can keep two keyboards before it and the screen is still huge. But this is no ordinary TFT monitor, it's a Multisync LCD which can display frequencies beginning from 49 Hz - so it works perfectly with my Amigas. The most consumer TFT's have to give up because they start displaying at 56 Hz. But there are more great features - Picture in Picture mode which displays the 2nd monitor input, a great thing. Great is also the ActiveRotation II feature which rotates the monitor display automatically - and the gfx card doesn't even need to support rotation! So it works even on the Amiga, the second picture shows one of this crazy interlace resolutions with 640x960 pixels, now they are useable (if you like 30 Hz flickering interlace).

The Eizo is really a professional monitor, it has a lot more functions than a consumer monitor, including external USB control - but only for Windows. It also has a perfect color profile for the Mac - to adjust my Samsung Syncmaster 204b was a pain. Useful for me was the inbuilt hour counter, this thing was just running 2260 hours - nearly 3 months only. And I got it for a quarter of the regular price, hehe.

Gallery • WorkingPlace (http://naquaada.na.funpic.de/naq/osx86/forum/infinitemac/naquaada/pix/pic1.jpg) • AmigaOS (http://naquaada.na.funpic.de/naq/osx86/forum/infinitemac/naquaada/pix/pic2.jpg) • AmigaVirtualScreens (http://naquaada.na.funpic.de/naq/osx86/forum/infinitemac/naquaada/pix/pic3.jpg) • NoRotationSupport (http://naquaada.na.funpic.de/naq/osx86/forum/infinitemac/naquaada/pix/pic4.jpg)

[lanceomni]

I use CS3 Master Collection on my rig and use Photoshop heavily. I may turn my computer off once every other week or so and I have had ZERO issues with the Adobe apps.

If your going to be using it professionally I would consider using the machine for only this and have an additional machine for personal or home use. Id fine tune your install until it runs stable with all the applications you use and then clone the drive as a backup so that if you run into issues you can boot off of your clone.

If you plan on doing any video production I would set your scratch disk and temporary files to a second drive. So that you can retrieve it from your backup or a second machine. If I am not in a rush I will actually purchase an external harddrive and keep all of my captured video, scratch & project files on it so that if my workstation goes down I can plug into a second and 99% of the time have no issues picking up where I left off. You will sacrifice performance but it is handy.

We are currently considering building a few retail install snow leopard (hopefully there will not be too many issues) hacks for video work. You have to way the difference between cost advantage and having support from your hardware/software companies. If im in a crunch at work and need to get FCP or one of our PowerPC machines back up and running I can call Apple. In my mind it would make a great backup workstation at a very affordable price.

*Monitors
I second naquaada on Eizo monitorsthey make a great product

[naquaada]

What about the monitor format? I always prefer 4:3, you only loose height on a widescreen monitor. A standard film format isn't existing, there's 4:3, 5:4, 16:9, 16:10, 22:anythingelse and so on. I think in the consumer corner you'll get mostly widescreen, professional monitors are still 4:3 I think.

To all TFT users: Have you tried a monitor color calibration of your monitor in MacOS? It needed heavy adjustments on my Samsung Syncmaster 204b. CRT monitors don't need this, also my Eizo monitor works perfectly without corrections.

@Beaver: Do you want to use an OSx86 system for business? Think about the (il)legality, especcially if you live in Australia this could be very problematic.

[Beaver]

I have a dell 24" WFP(ultrasharp) model at the workstation beside me. They're pretty good, but for some reason reds are extremely over-saturated. It's hooked in to the DVI-out of a Mac Mini. I've yet to find a way to correct the ultra-intense reds. It's a non-TN display at least!

The Eizo's look great, but seem WAY over-priced here. I can hardly justify $3900AUD for a 24". Even the Apple 30" is $2800AUD, and likely a comparable (or better? S-IPS still?) panel. I don't care about the ratio, 4:3, 16:9, 16:10... but, bigger is always better. I won't use anything smaller than the 24's.

naquaada: I'm not yet using any osx86 workstations, and this includes the business. Nobody would really see the box itself, so I'm not too worried. I'll just disregard the silly laws instead of trying to change them (as you'll find most Aussies do). Love the Amiga tracker, that's great.

lanceomni: I'll likely use the test-box as my new primary, and have the 24" imac as a backup.

As for disk backups, I use carbon copy cloner extensively. It has saved my ass before :D

[lanceomni]

Photography:
Despite the fact that your color gamet shrinks from Source>Computer>Print a good LCD that covers over the full gamet of the AdobeRGB 1998 color space is pretty handy. There are some Eizo and Lacie Monitors that are in the $1000USD range which are great. A decent monitor coupled with frequent color calibration should work fine.

Video:
Video output for viewing on a television with correct color/contrast will generally look a bit washed out on a computer monitor. Likewise, video that looks good on a computer monitor will appear a bit dark on a television (Now this has nothing to do with calibration its that computer monitors work much differently than a television. Ill try to dig up some references) You can use a good firewire deck or professional tv monitor designed for this use. Using the scopes feature on your editing software is very handy. I personally don't think you need a high end monitor to edit video. A decent LCD with the ability to adjust each color along with a color spectrophotometer (You can find these relativly inexspensive just be sure that they are a true "spectrophotometer" and not just a colorimeter)

Ratio:
Having two 20"+ monitors is nice for your editing software. We shoot everything in 1080i keeping in mind that we will be cropping to 3:4 SD this way in the future we can go back and re-export the video if needed.

Apple LCDS:
A note on Apple monitors. Im not a fan. My experience is only with older models so they may have corrected this but on the three models I have used you can not adjust the colors individually on the monitor itself. I think they are a bit overpriced.

Home Use
At home on my hack I run two extremely inexpensive 22" Acer monitors. I use a spectrophotometer every month to build a profile and they look great. Video work that I corect on my home machine looks fine when I view it at work and on professional monitors. Photography on the other hand tends to block up in the shadows a bit but I am aware of this and accept it for my personally family stuff. I mean at a 10th of the cost of a single good monitor I knew what I was getting.

[naquaada]

If you buy components you have to look for available drivers AND for power consumption. It is possible to use an ATI Radeon HD4850x2, but this beast needs 285W power. I've chosen a Radeon HD2600XT, it's ok and only needs 50W. Dual monitor, rotation and so on is supported. It's crazy, it allows resolutions which are bigger than the native resolution of my Eizo moitor. I can display 1920x1440 or even 2048x1536! The pic looks a bit grainy (hope the word was the one I want ;-) because the resolution is higher than the pixel size, but it's no problem working with it. In higher game resolutions the card maybe a bit slower, Lego Indy @ 1600x1200 is too slow in special situations. But the Mac's gfx engine isn't built for games anyway.

@Beaver: If your like Amiga tracker tunes, I've converted about 200 Protracker mods to MP3, ready for iTunes, including cover and full MP3 tags. There are a lot of converted game soundtracks, Jaguar, Lotus III (http://naquaada.na.funpic.de/naq/osx86/forum/infinitemac/naquaada/files/Lotus3Title.mp3), Lemmings, Monkey Island and so on. The demo is resampled to 80kbit/s because my websapce only allows files up to 1.5 MB.

[lanceomni]

@naquaada man It is amazing the amount of power high end graphics cards use.

[Beaver]

I just wrote a response and somehow lost it in a sea of tabs... oops

Anyhow, to summarise:

lanceomni:
- Adobe RGB doesn't matter for us, as all of the work is for the web
- Using consumer displays makes the most sense, since that's what nearly all of our customers are using. Although, I prefer to at least step up to a M-PVA/PVA, or whatever they are. Just to get more uniform contrast across the screen
- I've never considered buying a cheap 22"er just for photoshop palettes etc. That's a great idea.
- Agreed. Apple LCD's are way over-priced, they're just a fancy case with the same panels everyone else is using (with the exception of the 30" which I think is still an S-IPS)

naquaada:
- I'm all about the fan-less, silent video cards. I consider the fastest card without a fan the best option.
- Downloaded the Lotus III track... that's great. I even forwarded on to someone who will appreciate it.

My current work machine is a 2.8ghz(C2D) Alu iMac, and I don't find it fast enough. I'd like to build a hackintosh that's noticeably faster, and hopefully just as reliable. I'm thinking quadcore at a better clock speed, and way more ram.

[lanceomni]

These types of professional video monitors are a good choice as most consumer models differ output greatly: http://www.compumodules.com/professional-display-monitors/sony/sony-professional-monitors.shtml

[naquaada]

@beaver: Didn't I mention that there are silent versions of the HD2600XT? Silent gfx cards are very important to me. You can take a look at various supported ATI HD Series (http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=107526) cards.

If you like some old stuff like Amiga music, do you know Boxer (http://www.boxerapp.com/)? It's a great solution to run MS-DOS games on the Mac. You can start the games just any normal Mac program. I made a lot of preinstalled games including icons.

Music: Try www.remix64.com (http://www.remix64.com/charts.html) for C64 remixes, amigaremix.com (http://www.amigaremix.com/) is the same for the Amiga. Here (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nnmnd0nmtjm) are (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tm3ebbejgmm) three (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?r5dmmjbfnnw) 100 MB packages of Amiga protracker Tunes, and for total crazy geeks take a look at SIDPlay (http://www.sidmusic.org/sidplay/mac/), a fantastic player for C64 SID tunes, including access to the HVSC (High Voltage SID Collection) with over 35000 Tunes!

[LawlessPPC]

just had to post this is turning into one of the more interesting threads as of late

[Beaver]

Wow, Boxer is great (nice little website too). I'd never come across it before. Some of those games bring back memories. I can't believe I wasted so much time playing Kings Quest when I was younger.

Do any of you guys run VMware Fusion/Parallels? Since it interacts at more of a driver level for some functions, I was curious how it would handle a hack-mac. I use Fusion quite a bit for testing all of the windows browsers (except for IE6, which we've officially dropped support for).

Finally found a non-TN monitor at a reasonable price, the Samsung 27" 275T (http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=computerperipherals&type=monitor&subtype=lcdmonitor&model_cd=LS27HUBCB/XSA). I'll use this for the test box.

[lanceomni]

@Beaver
"I can't believe I wasted so much time playing Kings Quest when I was younger."

Yeah I wasted a great deal of time playing Civilization 1

[thedaemon]

Do any of you guys run VMware Fusion/Parallels? Since it interacts at more of a driver level for some functions, I was curious how it would handle a hack-mac. I use Fusion quite a bit for testing all of the windows browsers (except for IE6, which we've officially dropped support for).

I'm currently running Tiger, but just got in some new parts today Gigabyte ep45 ds3l or what not, and I will get Leopard up and running. Then I will test them both and let you know.

SIDPlay is pretty awesome! Thanks for the Amiga tunes. I love old scene music.

[naquaada]

Erm, because here's already a lot of this: I'm preparing some packages with MS-DOS games. If anyone is searching something special from the past (what's not too big) send a PM to me. I have a collection of about 2000 MS-DOS games, maybe I have it. There are even C64 classics like Lode Runner, Hard Hat Mack and Montezuma's Revenge!

Lucasfilm, Sierra games and other Point'n'Click-adventures are easier to play with ScummVM (http://www.scummvm.org/).

[Gravillo]

I was wondering if there were any i7 "Hac" users out there trying to use the machine for work and what the daily reliability experience was like. I understand i7 use is still a bit recent. :) Thanks in advance!

[newbmac]

Suggest you go with iPC OSx86, best distro out right now and it's fairly new at 10.5.6!

[Undead Surfer]

Once you can get a stable installation going then the operating system just works. It's a great production environment too.

[uman]

Beaver,

Some advice, take it any way you like :rolleyes:

1. Look where Apple is going when choosing hardware. Since they've transitioned away from ATI, & Intel towards nVidia, you'll have much better luck getting the graphics going if the card is being used in a current Mac.

2. Wait a cycle or two on OS upgrades. Check the compatibility threads on insanely, here and elsewhere. You'd be surprised how subtle the breakage is on mundane upgrades. If you can live with [that is, you're in a secure environment] 6 month OS upgrade cycles, then do so.

3. Otherwise if you need shorter upgrade cycles, stick as close to a retail installation as possible. (I've actually had less problems on non-retail installations than on retail, although my situation may be different than yours since right now I'm working exclusively on several laptops.) If you've done good desktop component selection, than go retail install.

4. Buy better components. Yeah, you can go way cheaper than Apple for desktops, but don't go too cheap!

Lastly-- wow, some Amiga fans! I developed for the Amiga back in the 80s: Publisher 1000 & Publisher Plus. Least fun part: getting overruled on my push for a low pricepoint, so the publisher could take most of the sales revenue. Most fun part: a font scaling algorithm I did using the bitblitter, which really impressed a reviewer at Computer Shopper.... Ahh, nostalgia.