[Solved] AMD Dual Core Timing Issue AKA Mouse Bug

[naquaada]

If it's an software/kernel error which appears at mathematical problems, then Photoshop could be affected because it's using a lot of these functions. So also rendering programs must have this problem, resulting by crashes or incorrect graphics. Has anyone tried this? If there's no other idea, post the mouse configurations for comparison.

BTW: Photoshop and all other Adobe apps can't be processed by the Xslimmer, the blacklist claims various errors. Maybe this is a problem too. Has anyone tried to patch the Adobe Suite's installer packages?

Seren's test program absolved actually over 2380 tests successfully on my machine.

[naquaada]

Here are my test results: 3471 of 3471 tests successfully, 49 to go. After this it hang in an enless loop in Selftest 7, but that issue was described in the readme file, it also could happen on real macs. Here's a screenshot (http://naquaada.na.funpic.de/naq/osx86/forum/infinitemac/naquaada/pix/CPUTest01.jpg), here's the log file (http://naquaada.na.funpic.de/naq/osx86/forum/infinitemac/naquaada/docs/CPUTest01.txt).

These applications were running in background: Activity Monitor, Adress Book, Cyberduck, Dockainer, Firefox, Mail, System Preferences, Transmission (paused), VLC Player.

Info: I always have the Activity Monitor running in the Dock (starting at login), showing cpu history. Maybe another thing to test.

[Voyn1x]

My system was installed originally on a single core processor. A couple of months later I went and replaced it with a dual core X2 so i'm not that dissimilar from you.

The mouse is not the cause since it works fine running on one core. It's just a side effect like the other issues.

[pmcnano]

Why the posibility that is a HTT problem is discarded (i asked that before). IF you notice, at least in tiger it appears (in leopard i cant seem to find it) but it detects HTT and detects 2 cpu's with 1 core each one when its the other way arround.

[^fire^]

whatever... my bios settings fixed that issues for me, the tiger is up and running since 10hours or more without crashes or mouse-hickups!
ok firefox crashed one time, but it wasnt a -10xxxx error :)
before that i was only able to use the tiger for at least 1 hour (intensive app use) after that it was unusable (mousejumps firefox adium crashes etc.) only a reboot fixed that for a small time... very anoying!

well i'll keep u guys informed

[pmcnano]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! =(

Fire, you are using tigeR?? damn

[naquaada]

By the way, what are you using for cpus? I'm using an Opteron 185, it's a Dual Core Server CPU with 1 MB Level-2-Cache per cpu. The most Athlon 64 X2 cpus have only 512K Level-2-Cache.

I still believe it's a Photoshop / Adobe problem, all users reporting this problem are Photoshop users. Adobe installs so much shit you don't see and everything is not patched for AMD. The software isn't unproblematic, XSlimmmer won't patch it because it doesn't work without the PPC part. The speed difference between x86 and ppc mode is rather high on AMD, don't know how's it on Intel cpus. This could be another reason.

[pmcnano]

I have a 3800 X2 cpu, and i dont have any adobe software.

[naquaada]

What have you guys for power supplies? My PSU has only 480W. Seems not very much, but the combined power (3,3+5V) is 384W! Various PSUs have a lot higer maximum watts, (550, 650 and so on) but much less combined power. My 550W RaptoXX had only 145W, and it was dead after two years using my 3700+ and 4000+.

Is anyone able to record the screen? I want to see how the mouse movement bug looks like.

[^fire^]

pmcnano:NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! =(

Fire, you are using tigeR?? damn

sorry i meant of course Leopard :P

[taikn]

Hi everyone!

My specs:
Motherboard: Asus A8N-E (Bios 1013)
CPU: Athlon X2 3800+ (2Ghz)
Memory: 3Gb (2x1Gb, 2x512Mb)

I've used in BIOS auto-overclocking profile which sad - '10% overclock'.
So my CPU was 2200Mhz
BUS Speed 220Mhz
RAM 440Mhz
and HT Link 1100 Mhz

When i installed Leo4All v3, i started experiencing mentioned above problems, so i switched to one core and updated my system to 10.5.4 and kernel 9.40 without problems.
Then i've manually overclocked my system, so i've set
Bus Speed to 240 Mhz
Multiplier to X10
HT Link to X4 (960 Mhz)
and RAM running on a divider 240/12

Then i removed 'cpus=1' flag, and system was up for abt 13 Hours, Transmission Downloading, Photoshop, stress tests and so on. I haven't noticed any problems. So i think for me it was HT Link: if it is above 1000, then system becomes unstable.

P.S. In 'Hardware Overview' next to 'Total number of cores' it shows 1? But in 'Activity monitor' i've two cpu graphs?
Is the second core recognized?

[naquaada]

It is recognized, System profiler doesn't show the infos correct. My system is also overclocked, from 2.6 to 2.86 Ghz.

[^fire^]

taikn:
P.S. In 'Hardware Overview' next to 'Total number of cores' it shows 1? But in 'Activity monitor' i've two cpu graphs?
Is the second core recognized?

thats normal, if the activity monitor shows two cpu's, the system uses both cores :)

so after 20hrs hardcore test, leopard runs without any of the anoying issues!
no mousejumps no crashes!
try to raise your memory CAS settings to 6 or higher, if i lower them back to normal (e.g. CAS 5) i got back the mousejumps and crashes!

[naquaada]

I'm not sure how to check the HT speed, but I've set the mulitiplier to 5x, so with my bus frequency of 220 MHz it should be 1100 MHz. I'll see what happens.

Is anyone able to record the movement bugs?

[pmcnano]

Well i can tell you, when i start posting here i had less errors with both cores and i had it overclocked.

I have a 3800+ X2 2ghz OC @ 2.6ghz with a 333mhz ram @ 420mhz.

now that i took off the overclock, i have my problems with dual core, so yes, overclocking reduces our problems.

I could try increasing memory timing but i dont know anything about it to be honest.

[naquaada]

You have 333 MHz RAM? It is labeld 333 or does your board not like it? I had on my Asus boards various problems with different RAM types, I have always bundles with 3200 speed, but they only work in correct combinations. Are you using Dual-Core or Single-Core RAM?

[pmcnano]

I guess you refer to dual channel, yea im using 2x2gb dual channel ddr 333mhz ECC memory.

With the overclock on my system the ram is setup to 420mhz, and i dont have that much issues compared with non overclocked rig.

[naquaada]

Hm, I can't overclock my RAM, computer won't start then. But my RAM is 400 MHz without overclocking.

[^fire^]

if you want to OC RAM sometimes its possible to higher your ram voltage!
some mobos have special settings for that

[naquaada]

Yes, I have settings for that. But I don't try it, my system runs fine like it is now. Always say: NTARS

[pmcnano]

naquaada, had you tried decreasing the HT?...if i have it in 5x it wont start! 4x or lower works fine.

Anyway, atm im trying to update tiger to 10.4.11 ! IF i success ill try and see how it works there :p

[naquaada]

I've set HT to 5x. No problems since then.

[pmcnano]

I meant the overclock! lol....:p

[naquaada]

I have overclocked my computer to 2,86, so the bus freuency is 220 MHz * 13 for the multiplicator. HT frequency is 1100 MHz, 220 MHz (bus frequency) x5 (manual setting). RAM is not overclocked and the cpu core voltage is reduced to about 1.325 Volts.

With these settings my system is absolutely stable, but i never had any problems yet.

[pmcnano]

OH , ok so you underclock memory and overclock cpu, something like this :S ?? :

underclock ram to 360mhz

overclock cpu to 2.6 and the ram is ""overclocked"" to 400mhz...


yes? lol...anyway...im still trying to install 10.4.11 to amd, its amazing that theres anything about it!

[naquaada]

no, RAM is standard @ 400 MHz

why do you try to install Tiger, does Leopard not work?

[pmcnano]

Well, we have the mouse bug, and the -10080 errors or w/e. But i want to at least have the latest tiger version working.

With 10.4.9 i have no issues with mouse, not even when stressing the hard drive or w/e.

[pmcnano]

Success! 10.4.11 runs fine....and i dont have the dual core problems (ATM) Ill let it powered and see how it goes. Only the system profiler crash.

[snyder9]

Some observations after I removed my Kingston DDR400 kit and replaced it with a OCZ one.
Earlier I was running a OCZ kit (2 x 512mb) and the Kingston (2 x 512mb) in dual channel.
Now I'm running four OCZ modules in dual channel (2 x 512mb and 2 x 1gb) and set them at CL3 (CL2 is default).

Didn't use any flags at boot. System is running fine after 28 hours. No Mouse bug, no 10080 errors so far. Will report back once if I get them later (hopefully not).

[naquaada]

Interesting! I have 4x Samsung RAM in my board, two bundles with 2x1 GB. I also want to remember: Check your boards if the RAM modules are placed in the correct sockets. Today's mainboards are very sensible in that. I have these bundles with two modules each:

2 GB Kingston HyperXX 2GB 400 MHz
2 GB Corsair XMS 4000 500 MHz (running @ 400 MHz)
1 GB GEIL GLX1GB4400DC 550 Mz (running @ 400 MHz)
2 GB Samsung 2 GB 400 MHz (bought in 2005)
2 GB Samsung 2 GB 400 MHz (bought in 2008)
2 GB Samsung 2 GB 333 MHz (bought in 2008, should be 400 Mhz but only works in 333)
1 GB No-Name RAM 400 MHz

I can only combine the GEIL and the Corsair RAM modules and the two Samsung 400 MHz modules, no other combinations work. Has anyone of the guys who have the mouse problem tried to use Single-Channel instead of Dual-Channel RAM?

[Adrian]

I've had this for a while and couldn't find any info before. I'm happy to know that it's not an exotic problem on my machine, though. ^^

I was noticing two errors I get in the console quite often:
> mDNSResponder[16]: mDNSPlatformRawTime: last_mach_absolute_time 409FDBDC0000333D
> mDNSResponder[16]: mDNSPlatformRawTime: this_mach_absolute_time 40987CA10000333D

Checking the source I gathered that somehow the timers of the cores get out of sync and in whichever core the mDNSResponder thread is executing it gets a different time. In some cases this seems to crash the gettimeofday function which probably relies on those timers. Sometimes the crash only affects applications that can easily be restarted but sometimes a system process crashes which either gets restarted (resulting in the lag - i usually notice crashrepoter hogging cpu when that happens) or result in errors like the -10810 one.

In my case it doesn't happen that often but rather regularly, about once a day. I don't think Photoshop is a trigger for it in my case. In "light" cases I notice that Firefox and Transmission are the most affected and sometimes I get "bad" cases when almost all apps begin to crash. Usually, if I just let it sit for a while the situation calms down again.

I tried to tweak my memory timings with no success.

[snyder9]

Unfortunately, the mouse bug has returned - though this one took much longer than usual (some 32 hrs.)

cpus=1, here I come. :(

[naquaada]

@ Adrian: Have you activated time syncronisation by internet?

[Adrian]

@naquaada
I had it disabled but activated it recently. Though if I'm not mistaken that didn't change anything...

[mcboobalot]

I will help out with this in any way I can (test my machine, etc). I have problems with this all the time.

I used to get a ton of restarts. Then I upgraded my intellimouse software and that went away. Now I get a ton of program crashing, especially in waves like Adrian mentioned, and I also suffer from the occasional 10810 (every two days or so). I'm NForce570.

[pmcnano]

well i can report that theres no dual core issues in tiger, no crashes no anything. The only thing i had some random kernel panics, im trying to figure out why, i think it was a lan card, i just deactive it, ill report later. Also, i cant find 10.4.11 kernel, what pisses me off mostly is that i had it! but i deleted it and now its nowhere! lol

=)

[naquaada]

I got the first time ever this -10810 bug. The only program could have caused it must be the VLC player. I listenend to an mp3 and suddenly the sound stopped. After this the VLC player quits, but without an 'VLC Player quits unexpectedly' message. After this I couldn't start any program getting the -18010 error. I pressed Ctrl+F12 to get the reboot menu, but the screen went grey for a short time and the desktop was back again. It seemed to be like a fast logout/login procedure, without entering a password. After this all programs worked fine again, no problems.

[naquaada]

For guys who have problems with Firefox 3: Try Flock (http://www.flock.com/beta/download/). The version 2 beta is based on Firefox 3, it even accepts the plugins. Firefox crashed rather often, but I don't think it's because of the Dual-Core bug. Flock seems to be faster and more stable.

[Voyn1x]

Firefox contains a couple of cpuids. If you patch it with Marvins the crashes stop :)

[Taisto]

Ok, i unfortunately have to join you all here....
My system : Benq p52 laptop with Turion 64X2 TL-52, 667Mhz Ram, Mobility Radeon X1600, SB Chipset.

System works perfectly for about 2-3 hours. After that problems keep showing up.
I experience no restarts or crashes though but :

- Sound is becoming more and more bugged ( flashing sound and noises )
- GUI works strange - slower acceleration, mouse movement are slowed down a little.
- Maybe...not really sure - cooling works little harder.

I guess that`s all of my problems ( fortunately ).
I have added cpus=1 flag - will se what happens now.


Edited :::

I wonder....because i`ve noticed one thing - that`s not my first Leo install, but that`s the first time i have this problem. Earlier i used to leave my pc on for almost whole day, play few hours using Fusion - and it worked like a charm i guess...the only difference was that i installed new PowerManagement.bundle then - and i did not this time cause it didnt bring my bat. indi. anyway. Could it be related in any way ? I have no idea but i`ll install it now as well.

[snyder9]

I finally decided to get some Intel hardware.

cpus=1 doesn't cut it for me. I have to close every application to run 720p smoothly and I have a lot of 1080p content (which barely runs obviously). Don't want to go back to windows so this was the only option with no working solution for this bug.

Here's what I ordered

Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro LGA775 2500RPM 45CFM
G.SKILL F2-8500CL5D-4GBPK PC2-8500 4GB 2X2GB DDR2-1066 CL5-5-5-15 240PIN Dual Channel Memory Kit
DFI LANParty Dk P35-T2RS LGA775 P35 ATX DDR2 1PCI-E16 3PCI SATA2 RAID HD Sound GBLAN Motherboard
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Quad Core Processor LGA775 Kentsfield 2.40GHZ 1066FSB 8MB

[Taisto]

There`s one of possible solutions that works on my laptop - do not install iTunes with Leopard. Use Lawless relase without it. I don`t have this problem anymore, but first time when i installed iTunes - problem came back, CPU was heating like hell etc. just after installing iTunes, i didn`t even have to run it. So - for me, maybe for someone else as well - no itunes = no problem. I hope i won`t install another program like that.

[sly55]

no iTunes? this is crazy :-)
For me no solution cause I got an iPhone

But what did the trick for me was ...finally... to "idlehalt=0"

Since then I have pretty stable system, no Thunderbird problems,
Systems running now for 2 Days without any problems or mouse bugs

Lawless 10.5.4 / Stage XNU / Disabed QnC / and Idlehalt=0

[Taisto]

Sly55 can You explain what idlehalt=0 does ?

Anyway, iTunes 8 is working for me at last, no heating after installing it and newest QuickTime, but i grabbed it from this forum ( someone posted pre-patched version ) so - maybe asu does`nt work very well on my os ?

[x2phantom]

idlehalt=0 prevents your cpu from stopping when it is idle. This prevents the timers from drifting from each other.

I'm working now with idlehalt=0 and have no problems so far. But I still get mach_time messages in the logs. But the timestamps do not differ very much.

[Voyn1x]

Guys we have found out some important information regarding the timing issue.

The P-state and C-state changes can affect the TSC and can result in TSC drift amongst the processor cores. The drift occurs only when the operating system uses TSC as the time keeping source. TSC drift can occur on K8 AMD multi-processor platforms and single-processor dual-core platforms as they do not provide frequency independent TSC. This drift does not occur on single-processor single-core platforms for obvious reasons.

http://developer.amd.com/documentation/articles/Pages/1214200692.aspx

Mercurysquad is now aware of this and is aiming to incorporate the Linux fix into the voodoo kernel.

I have a question for everyone suffering from this 'bug'. Is your motherboard based on the K8 chipset? I know mine is...

[R0GUE]

Mine is a K8 too.

[x2phantom]

I also have a K8 board

[mercurysquad]

This is now fixed as of Voodoo beta 2 :)

One question though: would people prefer to have it as a kext or in-kernel as it is now?

[R0GUE]

I can confirm this :)

A huge thanks to the XNU devs from all of us here at Infinite Mac!

[Puttabong]

Am I reading right? The 'Mouse movement bug' has finally been put to an end? Wonderful!

Thank you XNU Dev Labs. :)

[R0GUE]

Yes, you read it right. I've been testing a pre beta 2 kernel with the relevant fix and I have to say that my system has never been so stable. No mDNSResponder errors, no divide by zero, no -10810 errors -- nothing!

Good job XNU-Dev!

[Taisto]

it`s not yet released right? is it possible to get this beta ? and what is the release date cause 8th was delayed

[R0GUE]

According to mercurysquad the official beta 2 should be released before Monday, "hopefully".

[naquaada]

Does the 9.5 kernel work with 10.5.3 too? I don't have the mouse mevement bug, but sometimes dividion by zero and maybe two times the -10810 error since I own my dual-core cpu which is since May. Which packages do I need?

[Taisto]

i think it may work, at least it works with 10.5.4. anyway i wonder why some bugs appear on some cpus but do not show up on others...i`ve never seen division by zero problem or any errors. i`ve got only mouse-bug and sound stuttering

[R0GUE]

The 'mouse bug' and audio stutter are both symptoms of TSC drift which has now been resolved.

[nfoav8or]

Not to throw this into the wrong discussion but with the voodoo_beta kernel, my original TSC delta was -235690 and the new delta with CPU1 is 36.

Is there any way to narrow the gap down closer to 0?

[Voyn1x]

This is now fixed as of Voodoo beta 2 :)

One question though: would people prefer to have it as a kext or in-kernel as it is now?

This is fantastic news, huge thanks to the XNU team for solving this at last! :cool:

Is there any benefit to having this fix as a kext? Would it not be simpler if it stays in-kernel?

[mercurysquad]

R0GUE just identified a bug where sleep/resume resets the workaround. So we'll probably package this up as a .kext which AMD users can dump in their Extensions folder and it will take care of everything - rather than modifying the kernel's sleep/resume functions. People who use other kernels can use the kext too.

This also means beta 2 will be further delayed. Please be patient :)

[SpursEngine]

I have been using the VooDoo_beta2 for a while and it has not fixed it for me. I still get mDNS responder errors too. I am running a 3.5ghz C2D with 4gb of 750mhz ddr2 on an ASUS P5N-t Deluxe mobo. I have also not yet tried the HT freq. x3 yet but will now. just letting you know that the kernel does not seem to be a total fix for everyone. ;) cheers all~

[Voyn1x]

This fix incorporated into the kernel is only aimed at K8 socket AMD owners. If you are experiencing problems you should fill out the beta test report and post it on Google Code.

[SpursEngine]

ah sorry bouut that, is it known to happen to lga775 mobos?

[lateralusman]

It seems that installing Paragon NTFS gives me the mouse bug. Using the cpus=1' kernel flag didn't fix it for me.
But I logged into Windows and using Macdrive deleted the Application from Applications. It still gives me read and write of NTFS but fixed the problem.

[Agent24]

I had a similar problem on my machine

After using standby (accidentally as I had left the PC for a while and had forgot to change power management settings) the whole OS was very laggy, System monitor showed high CPU usage.

I think the OS crashed when trying to resume from standby and after a reboot then I had the high CPU usage problem. No matter how many times I rebooted, nothing fixed it.

I only have a single core Athlon 64 though. Also, booting with -x option would make it run smooth but video drivers didn't load so couldn't run anything fancy.

Never worked it out and eventually reinstalled

[lateralusman]

I can't seem to find a fix for my mouse bug.
Booting cpus=1 doesn't do anything.
It seems to happen randomly when I boot up. The screen goes black and the monitor says no signal, then it goes light blue, then the desktop comes up very slowly and then I can't move my mouse. If I restart I'll get the same thing.
Tried booting with the fsb= boot argument but no go.
I've even tried iDeneb 1.4 same thing.

[Biosquirrel]

Well im new to the hackintosh world so please if anyone can help me do.
i still havent installed the program. well what im trying to say is i havent even picked out one ie. (IDeneb, Kalyway, or a iPC) so if anyone could also help me with this that be great, so my rig is as follow,

M3A79-T Deluxe
Phenom x4 9550
XFX GeForce 9800 GT - 512MB GDDR3
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 250GB Hard Drive

my optical drive is a cd-rom but do really need a dvd-rom
note* the mobo is a crossfire x ready chipset


thanks in advance
Max .C.

[lateralusman]

Well im new to the hackintosh world so please if anyone can help me do.
i still havent installed the program. well what im trying to say is i havent even picked out one ie. (IDeneb, Kalyway, or a iPC) so if anyone could also help me with this that be great, so my rig is as follow,

M3A79-T Deluxe
Phenom x4 9550
XFX GeForce 9800 GT - 512MB GDDR3
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 250GB Hard Drive

my optical drive is a cd-rom but do really need a dvd-rom
note* the mobo is a crossfire x ready chipset


thanks in advance
Max .C.

This isn't exactly the thread to post that.

I've had the most luck with ideneb. Make sure you get the most resent iDeneb 1.4.
You need to search the forums for the right kexts (drivers) for your hardware. You can also check out the insanelymac.com wiki and forums.

Yes you need a dvd drive os x to to big to be on cd. Unless you but it on a USB key and boot from that.