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Old 12-25-2008, 07:43 AM
cmdshft's Avatar
cmdshft cmdshft is offline
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Location: Hackensack, NJ
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Something I noticed that rather irked me...

I was reading a thread on InsanelyMac, and Dense posted something that irritated me a bit.

Most people don't have the vision to see that forking of projects in the long term is a bad thing. The chameleon project is extremely active and has a number of developer contributing nearly daily to the sources. Taking Chameleon to the next level has required massive internal restructuring and just breaking the 64k limit was a difficult and long process. The chameleon project now is part of the Voodoo team and other than the kernel work there are a number of other projects in development.

The long term goal is to create quality alternative implementations of the key foundations of OS X. This was why the kernel was dealt with first and the boot loader is in the process of being made much more modern and expandable. We also have a few other extensions that will resolve some very outstanding and troublesome issues for users. Also some of the smaller extensions which have been required have become integrated into the boot loader (SMBIOS enablers, EHCI ownership problems etc). We also hope to have PCI probing added to allow device properties to be added (to fix problems such as GMA 950 on some systems as well as networking problems - time machine).

While the source code for all these projects will be open to everyone, during development we have found that its better to keep the sources closed. The truth of the matter is that most people have no interest in enhancing and fixing problems with OS X. The kernel sources we put together have had practically no interest (and even with a simple building tool to make kernel compiling easy for those looking to learn). The majority of the advancements in OS X running on normal PCs has been done by a very small group of people. I wish I could say it was a community achievement but that really hasn't been the case at all.

While its possible for the community to continue to toss out DVD's with a million different options (just look at the new iPC DVD) practically no user will know what option to choose and end up with a system that doesn't work. Is this the direction we really want to go? Alternative extensions with a quality boot loader and kernel will give a much simpler install and a much higher compatibility. If the OS X community wants to grow up, it has to move in this direction. This is what the Voodoo team is trying to do. We hope others are willing to join us.
The undelined bolded part is what really sparked me. I had the following to say:

The problem, though, in the end, is that the community will eventually move more and more towards trying to create a "vanilla" experience. While I think this is great, the problem becomes people with older hardware, like me. Already with the 10.5.6 update, my obsolete FX5500 has been phased out by Apple. The new iPC DVD aims to create a distro that allows a user to empower themselves with all the greatness of what the "community" has created, in both Vanilla and non-Vanilla scenarios. For the first time, I personally, after helping devd it, had a system that worked 99% OOTB at first boot, the 1% being caused by my aging GFX card with 10.5.6 running with 10.5.5 drivers. Nothing else has enabled that for me, though, and going the "vanilla" route is not possible for me.

We can't just grow up with one set direction, we're not all headed the same way. We have to grow forward in all aspect, with both tools of new and tools of old. I think that a lot of people forget this, even the developers who make such great tools.
Anyone else wish to add their views on this? I am all for advancement, but leaving users in the dust whom we know we can still support is what I am against, and such is the purpose of iPC OSx86 (not trying to use as a plug, just stating a fact that we are supporting the advancement while still supporting the old hardware).

Mac OS X Leopard 10.5.8 (9L30) | Chameleon 2.0 RC3 | Intel Pentium 4 3Ghz 800Mhz FSB HyperThread 1MB L2 cache SSE3 1MB L2 cache works, cosmetic display of 512KB L2 cache | Asus P4V8X-MX VIA Chipset, VIA-VT8237 Southbridge | AC97 VIA8237 | Dual 1GB 333Mhz DDR SDRAM | nVidia PNY GeForce 7600GS 512MB 8x AGP DVI/TV-Out/VGA [NVinject 0.2.1; QE/CI/QuartzGL/Rotation] | Darwin Kernel Version 9.7.0: Sun Jun 14 20:48:28 IST 2009; Voodoo 2.0 Intel alpha3 :xnu-1228.12.14/BUILD/obj/RELEASE_I386 i386
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Old 12-25-2008, 12:48 PM
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Taisto Taisto is offline
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"just look at the new iPC DVD) practically no user will know what option to choose and end up with a system that doesn't work. Is this the direction we really want to go?" - he has some right, about that many users will end up with system which doesn`t boot - like me for example at first time, but IMO the more options and ways we have, the more users will find some of them working. And i agree with you about old hardware - users with it who can`t work it out themselves will just leave the community without support - i wouldn`t call it advancement.

Anyway why does he attack iPC release ? it works for many of us so is that wrong ? i don`t think so.
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Old 12-25-2008, 01:55 PM
flip360 flip360 is offline
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i agree that a handfull of people created and coded and whatnot to get the community to a point where it is now, THATS GREAT but i have to agree with iPC also cause not everyone has the cash to track the newest and badest hardware or osx distro for that matter...i installed iPC with the help of ~pcwiz and have a fully working OSX 10.5.6 without a glitch. Does that matter? to me yes. Does support mean anything? to me for sure. Dont get me wrong, i am no fanboy, but a complete noob when it comes to OSX, anyway if you dont know what a terminal is or what type of hardware you have in your rig, or what kexts do work for you, thats an entirely other matter. read. learn. experiment. my 2 cents anyway...

Last edited by flip360; 12-25-2008 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 12-25-2008, 02:54 PM
DoiX DoiX is offline
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i only agree with the part that most users that want mac on their have no clue of how a basic PC works, they just want it because it looks cool or god knows what else( at least this is what i understood ). I really dont want super-mega-easy instalation methods for osx86 because all the ..dumb.. people will start using it and then the osx community will become just another winblown community full with crackheads that beg for help and dont offer it back to others. Honestly.. i hope apple wont launch osx on normal PC's... exclusivity is what made apple and osx

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Old 12-28-2008, 03:51 PM
FirstHackTosh FirstHackTosh is offline
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Originally Posted by DoiX View Post
i only agree with the part that most users that want mac on their have no clue of how a basic PC works
Apple Hardware these days is a basic PC. The only problem is, the Apple hurdles.
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:04 PM
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McMadd McMadd is offline
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I just had a look at the original thread but it seems your response is not really posted as a direct reply to the comment Dense makes. That makes your comments look a bit strange in the rest of the thread.
Also, it seems you are not alone with your opinion.

For what it's worth, I just started out with OSX86 and your distro is the first that worked for me. What I found really nice was the comments you made in the release notes. That was really informative and helpful and something I haven't seen in the other distro's I tried.

This might be something to pick up and extend on, also in relation to the initial comments. What if your distro comes with clearer instructions then the others, this together with the universal nature you are aiming for will make it a strong competitor.

Just my 2 cts...

CPU : AMD Athlon64 X2 5600+ Dual-Core 2.9GHz
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Mem : 4Gb (2x 2GB, PC-6400 DDR-II 800MHz)
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Old 12-30-2008, 01:17 AM
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LawlessPPC LawlessPPC is offline
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well i do agree with both points. If you can go vanilla then go vanilla. But if you have some odd or rare hardware combination then use a distro that caters for it. One of the biggest issues is if ppl would do a bit of research before they attempted what they tried to do they may be much more successfull with other distros. The end user wants a total plug and play solution but this is almost impossible to attain. The reason being there will always be fresh hardware. The usual install for me now is vanilla thanks to the new kernel. And for anyone else would always reccomend only installing with just the chipset kext and right kernel. As this gives more chance of a initial boot and then when installing fresh kext tracking the one that made it fall over. What I will state again is i think we need a push for just a usb pendrive image that makes a retail dvd boot and copies kexts and kernel over as this would only be a few MB to download. Also PCWiz I think your the man to help me with the parts I cant manage with this type of distro. PM me if your interested

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